r/science Aug 07 '22 All-Seeing Upvote 1 Snek 1 Helpful 1 Calculating 1

Voters’ threshold for transgressions by political candidates. Republicans were more likely than their political counterparts to maintain support of their candidate even after learning of transgressions of rather high severity, such as "paid a witness to give false testimony in a criminal trial," Psychology

https://today.uic.edu/study-examines-voters-threshold-for-transgressions-by-political-candidates
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u/ikeosaurus Aug 07 '22 Silver All-Seeing Upvote Bravo! Eureka!

A core belief among republicans today is that democrats cheat. Telling people your opponents are cheating is a way to get them ready to overlook one’s own misdeeds. If our opponents are cheating, then it’s ok if I cheat too. Partisan loyalty becomes the most important thing. This is why nearly all of what people like Donald Trump says is aimed at making his supporters think his opponents are cheaters, and there actually isn’t anything substantive he says about his own policy ideas. “Your enemies are cheating” is enough.

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u/Amon7777 Aug 07 '22

Try reframing their behavior as rooting for a sports team and it will make more sense. It's why they blame the other team, the referees, etc.

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u/e30eric Aug 07 '22

But they've similarly been told that democrats are the ones rooting for the sports team. Even though spending hundreds of dollars installing gaudy billboards on front lawns, on cars, boats, clothing, etc. -- just like one would do with sports regalia, is exclusively their thing.

I also like how in one breath, "the left" is criticized for not agreeing with each other and infighting and in the next, accused of being cohesive and playing "team sports."

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 08 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/PM_ME_UR_POKIES_GIRL Aug 07 '22

Because basically nobody would buy them.

I live in DC so presidential souvenirs are pretty common around here at every tourist trap. It's still easier to find Trump stuff than Biden stuff around here. I assume it mostly sells to tourists though, because it's a rare day when I meet an open Trump supporter around here.

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u/Yashema Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22 Silver Gold

Also if you compare the Democrats and Republicans as sports teams:

A demographic study conducted by 6 Universities found that Liberal policy regarding labor rights, smoking bans, civil rights, environmentalism, progressive taxation, and education increased life expectancy by over 2 years for the people living in Liberal states, and if it had been implemented universally the US would have life expectancy on par with Western European Nations.

Research has found poor people live longer in dense cities with highly educated populations and high government expenditures like New York City and San Francisco as opposed to living in cheaper CoL areas.

10/12 states that have not implemented the Medicaid Expansion voted for Trump in 2020 and all 12 voted for him in 2016 (Georgia and Wisconsin flipped).

9/10 most gerrymandered states for the 2012-2020 legislative elections were controlled by Republican legislatures.

17/20 states with net 0 carbon emission or 100% clean energy goals voted for Biden, and one of the Republican states is North Carolina, which only voted for Trump by 1% and has a Democrat governor and another is Louisiana which has a Democrat governor.

17/23 states with abortion bans or automatic abortion bans following the overturning of Roe v Wade voted for Trump in 2020, and 22/23 voted for Trump in 2016.

19/20 states with gay conversion therapy bans voted for Biden. Surprisingly Utah is the one Trump voting state that also has a ban.

17/19 states with legal recreational marijuana voted for Biden, and the two Trump voting states have a combined population of 1.7 million, compared to 137 million in the Biden states.

9/10 states with the lowest rate of incarceration voted for Biden in 2020, while the 10 states with the highest rates voted for Trump in 2020.

71% of the 2019 GDP was produced in Biden voting counties, up from 64% in HRC voting counties in 2016 and 54% in Gore voting counties in 2000.

11/15 states with the highest GDP per Capita voted for Biden, and the 4 Republican states are all low population oil states (AK, ND, WY, NE) while California, New York, Massachusetts and Washington are in the top 6.

11/15 states with the lowest GDP per capita voted for Trump in 2020, and 12/15 voted for Trump in 2016.

If this were a sport I'd say the Democrats are the New York Yankees while Republicans are more of the Houston Astros.

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u/BigBennP Aug 07 '22 Silver Helpful Wholesome

I know your post was regarding politics, but the study on Urban versus rural poverty caught my eye.

Many people do not realize the depth of rural poverty in the United States. I certainly didn't when I was younger.

I work as a child welfare lawyer and have covered cases and gone to court in some of the poorest counties in the United states, both majority white (the Ozark mountains) and majority black (the Mississippi delta). I also teach as an Adjunct professor at a community college where more than half of the student body are first-time College graduates.

Rural poverty is a 30-year-old that grew up in a trailer where you had to walk around the soft spots on the floor and the Power and Water were off a week or two every month, they grew up in the 90s and didn't have TV or Internet except at school. They Remember you had to catch rainwater in buckets to flush the toilet or go outside.

Rural poverty is a great grandmother in her 60s who lives on $700 a month Social Security disability and takes care of three great grandkids because her own children and grandchildren have drug problems and she has to balance helping them out when she can.

Rural poverty is someone who is pretty sure they have a serious health problem and haven't gone to the doctor because "town" is a 30 minute drive away and they can't afford the gas. So they wait for some friend or family member to drive them. They can't apply for Medicaid easily because that means multiple trips into town.

There are few people with more strongly internalized feelings about the rural poor than the people who grew up that way and made it out. A Former law partner who grew up in a trailer with an alcoholic single Father who kicked him out when he was 16 and mangled his hand when he was illegally working in a meat packing plant at 17, and made it through college and law school through being brilliant and sheer spite for his dad. A judge in her 50s who grew up in a one bedroom house with four siblings who were being cared for by their grandmother and has no tolerance for parents who "don't work" and are too proud to take help where they can find it.

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u/Yashema Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22 Helpful

A judge in her 50s who grew up in a one bedroom house with four siblings who were being cared for by their grandmother and has no tolerance for parents who "don't work" and are too proud to take help where they can find it.

You also shouldn't overlook the racist element of how this mentality came to be.

Remember in 1960 and 1964 when Kennedy and Johnson swept the rural Southern vote through promises of a more equal America and Johnson's "Great Society". Then Democrats supported the Civil Rights Act and all of a sudden they started leaking rural White voters. And it isnt that rural Whites are against welfare, they have higher government disability usage than urban areas, they are against welfare that might get equally distributed to "the wrong people". This is why we still see 12, mostly rural Southern States, refusing the Affordable Care Act, despite the clear benefits to rural parts of the country.

"Too proud to ask for help" is often just cover to excuse their racist, and insanely self sabotaging, beliefs.

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u/Rehnion Aug 07 '22

And it isnt that rural Whites are against welfare, they have higher government disability usage than urban areas, they are against welfare that might get equally distributed to "the wrong people". This is why we still see 12, mostly rural Southern States, refusing the Affordable Care Act, despite the clear benefits to rural parts of the country.

Ignorance plays a huge role as well. 'welfare' has a very specific meaning for many of these people, and it's whatever government services other people are getting, but never the government services they get. I work in rural PA and I see this mindset all the time. They aren't even aware they're being hypocritical about it.

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u/SgtDoughnut Aug 07 '22

Yeah when others get assistance it's just welfare and food stamps. When they get it it's SNAP and whatever their state calls their welfare program. In their minds it's totally different because they deserve it while the other doesn't.

These are also the same people who complain about people eating lobster on food stamps.

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u/Rehnion Aug 07 '22

The whole thing with Obamacare/ACA. Republican voters on camera talking about how much they hate Obamacare and it's unconstitutional, then pivoting to how those democrats better not touch her precious ACA which has helped her out so much! Or talking about how it's communism, then when questioned about each part individually they support it all.

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u/oliveshark Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

And then the same people rail, on camera, against CRT and don't even know what it is. The bottom line is these people are selfish morons... we can call them "ignorant" and be nice, but we're dealing with a cold reality here... a lot of Americans are both stupid and selfish.

Edit: I apologize, I didn’t notice what sub this was. Not the sort of thing I’d knowingly say here.

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u/Yashema Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

Ya, but that "hypocritical ignorance" is so they dont have to say explicitly "we dont want welfare going to non-White people". We can provide any number of excuses, but rural Americans turned against collectivism and social welfare programs immediately following the successes of the 1960s Civil Rights movement.

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u/SgtDoughnut Aug 07 '22

They turned against it way before that. They just turned it into a make or break issue.

And they had a collective meltdown when a black man became POTUS.

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u/coolgr3g Aug 07 '22

Something about Obama in a tan suit had them reeling for weeks if I remember right.

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u/Wonderful-Volume1187 Aug 07 '22

Raised as a rural white, I can promise you it is 99 percent ignorance. Most of the reasons you are giving for these demographics behavior are behavioral patterns that they’ve never even thought through or attempted to reflect on. They read Facebook posts and regurgitate the ones favoring trump

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u/RosiePugmire Aug 07 '22

They also are constantly fed propaganda that the city is worse, that big cities are trash-filled warzones where gangs of antifa or crack addicts are roaming the streets doing drive-bys and slitting people's throats on the daily. They can cite crime stats about Detroit all day long but nobody informs them that the states with the highest murder, assault & other violent crime rates are states like Louisiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi, South Carolina, Tennessee, Alabama, Illinois... while the states with the lowest violent crime rates are actually the blue states...

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u/FeministFiberArtist Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 08 '22

This is very true. When we were on benefits as my husband went through disability people would say the rudest things about ‘those people’ and when I would point out that we were those people they would say, ‘well obviously not you - you’re who it is for.’ I tried explaining it was ‘for’ anyone who qualified but that seemed to make them zone out. They have been convinced of the ‘welfare queen’ and no amount of facts will sway them from it

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u/Chippopotanuse Aug 08 '22

“When I was on food stamps and welfare, nobody ever gave me any help” (or something to that effect) - Craig T. Nelson.

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u/bossy909 Aug 07 '22

As it turns out, racist policy hurts white people too

And they do it to themselves

And then they very effectively blame the democrats

It's a vicious cycle

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u/Djaja Aug 07 '22

It's like not having money growing up.

You get it, it gets spent. Either on immediate needs, that one sorta "big" purchase you need like car repair, or to prior debt. You never have cash, and you learn to expect to never have cash. The cash you get is too exciting, and it may get spent badly, but also, it gets spent on what is needed and that is not cheap either. Never being able to get past that hump.

And it is a hump.

I've felt it, I've gone up and fallen back. But if you can get past that hump, it is possible.

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u/dont_shoot_jr Aug 07 '22

Conservative media has framed it as “not working hard enough”

God forbid that the majority of people get assistance when someone, you know who, might not deserve it

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u/basssnobnj Aug 07 '22

While you can certainly ascribe some of white rural poverty to racism( especially in the south), that's certainly not the only cause.

For example, Appalachians have always been mistrusting of outsiders, which means they don't trust/want help from "big city" politicians, nor do they want outsiders coming into their communities, which could bring tourism dollars or outside investments in businesses.

Also, Appalachia is where a lot of coal and steel production was, and some towns now classified as "rural poor white" towns were thriving economically 50 -100 years go. Just about the entire state of Pennsylvania falls into this category.

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u/Balthasar_Loscha Aug 07 '22

For example, Appalachians have always been mistrusting of outsiders

Racism and other distrust based on superficial attributes has the same shallow, thought disordered/paranoid thought process in common.

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u/Superspick Aug 07 '22

Si the Appalachian’s have always had a version of racism that evolves with the times?

Shame that. This means it is deeply entrenched and damn near a cultural belief. Not a sports team, not a trivial association.

Now what?

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u/basssnobnj Aug 07 '22

Si the Appalachian’s have always had a version of racism that evolves with the times?

No. Someone else conflated "rural poor white" with the South and immediately rushed to blame racism. Not every problem in the US is due to racism, and The South does not have a monopoly on rural poor white people. Appalachia is a separate culture with a separate history than The South and even in The South, they draw sharp distinctions between the Mid-South and Deep South (don't ask me where the dividing line is.)

While in some areas, Appalachia and The South overlap, that doesn't mean their the same.

Most Appalachians are of Scotch-Irish descent. The Scotch-Irish originated in Scotland. They were Presbyterian Scots, and the king of England was forcing them join the Church of England, so they to Ireland. Eventually, the English empire caught up with them there, and they moved again, this time to America, where they're was more religious freedom.This is no different than the original Dutch pilgrims in Mass., or the Pennsylvania Dutch.

Their distrust of outsiders comes from outsiders, like the King of England, trying to impose his will on them. They moved to rural areas in the colonies where they'd be left alone, just like the Pennsylvania Dutch

The last time I checked, the German, and English/Scottish/Irish were white, as were the Pennsylvsnia Dutch, and Appalachians, so race is not at the root of this.

Also, "rural poor white" doesn't mean the south. A large percentage of Pennsylvania is classified as Appalachia, as is some counties in New York state. If you've ever driven through the interior on NY state, it's just as poor as Appalachia, and doesn't look any different, tbh. But because of the image and impact of NYC, everyone thinks it's a rich, liberal state, which is pretty far from off for the rest of the state.

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u/WillowWispWhipped Aug 07 '22

It makes sense since a lot of Scottish people settled in Appalachia, and especially Pennsylvania. I mean, after all, the British did try to wipe them all out, so they had a reason for their distrust.

Meanwhile I’m rural and poor but still have a lot compared to some. I’m more like the upper lower class. I may have been too proud when I was younger, but I have kids depending on me now. If I need help, I’ll apply and see what I get. If I don’t need help and am in a good place, I will try to help myself and whoever I can. I have a lot of issues that make it hard for me to commit to a full time job, so I tend to go in cycles of doing okay financially , and then struggling. Realistically even in the okay times, one missed day of pay can throw me off horribly.

And when you look at the numbers, welfare actually ends up benefiting the economy but conservatives just want to talk about how it’s a drain on the system and have no facts to back it up.

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u/syriquez Aug 07 '22

"Too proud to ask for help" is often just cover to excuse their racist, and insanely self sabotaging, beliefs.

It's a vicious line to take but I've pretty much narrowed down low-medium income GOP voting to be founded in some combination of ignorance and racism. It's never one or the other, it's always both at some amount. And racism isn't just a "black vs white" thing, it's an "us vs them" thing.

It's frustrating because otherwise reasonable, smart, logical people will dress it up but it always comes down to those two factors. I can think of a particular individual that spent a good amount of time working as a paramedic and he developed some hard views about race in that time due to a lot of bad experiences. So it flavors his entire outlook on society and welfare.

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u/PathologicalLoiterer Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

The problem is, as rampant as rural poverty is, they consistently vote against policies and politicians that would actually help them. They keep voting Republican, their situation gets worse because Republicans not only just don't care but actively make rural poverty worse, then they blame the Democrats. Working in Missouri was infuriating. It was constantly people complaining about losing their welfare benefits and how hard it was to keep them and how it just wasn't enough which isn't fair because they "deserve" them in one breath, then championing conservative politicians because they are going to cut social services and stop those last welfare recipients from leeching off the system.

They get my sympathy when they stop demanding help while also insisting that it doesn't help anyone else in the process.

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u/sauronthegr8 Aug 07 '22

I have seen for years people, including liberals and Democrats themselves, claim the Democratic Party "abandoned" rural areas and don't reach out enough. But, being from a rural area in the deep South myself, I've never seen it.

I have, however, seen people in rural communities consistently vote against higher wages, access to unions, regulations on labor and finance, safety nets for the poor and underemployed, amnesty toward non-violent criminals, better funding for public education, improving infrastructure, shifting the tax burden more toward the wealthy, access to healthcare. All things Democrats have offered over the years and would substantially improve lives.

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u/PathologicalLoiterer Aug 07 '22

I haven't seen that as much from liberals, but I definitely know what you mean about "liberals abandoned rural areas" rhetoric. I think part of the issue is that Republican voters have this insane caricature of what liberals are. From what I can tell, it's because their understanding of liberals is based entirely on what conservative news channels tell them liberals think. Like, they don't bother to check other sources or even ask liberals. They argue that you can't trust the media, yet they don't question their media. For myself, if I want to know what conservatives are thinking, I'm sure as hell not going to go to a liberal news site to get that info. They don't know what conservatives think, they aren't conservatives. I read Fox articles or watch conservative news to see what conservatives think. I read/watch liberal (and centrist) media to learn how liberals (and centrists) think. Conservatives don't do that. They go to other conservatives to learn about conservatives and liberals.

I actually had someone tell me recently that they've never met anyone that was actually liberal or Democrat. After talking to them, everyone they had met that identified as liberal or Democrat was "actually a moderate conservative." Their rationale for that was that the people he talked to didn't match the insane caricature of liberals that he believed, so they are actually conservative. It never occurred to him that maybe it was his definition of liberal that was wrong, it had to be that ~170 million Americans who were wrong about their personal political alignment.

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u/subherbin Aug 07 '22

The rural poor this person is describing are not likely to vote. With lives this difficult, it’s hard to blame them for not being able to.

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u/lunartree Aug 07 '22

The population of rural poor described above isn't very large and isn't that big of an influence on elections. The "rural" vote that makes up the red landmass on the map is living what is basically a suburban lifestyle. They strongly identify with being "rural" while not really being the same culture as the actual rural poor.

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u/tesseract4 Aug 07 '22

It's performative rurality.

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u/Feshtof Aug 07 '22

Performative poverty

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u/dont_shoot_jr Aug 07 '22

A lot of conservative media is eager to point towards urban poverty and crime to show the failure of liberal policies while ignoring that many of those problems exist in rural areas as well, the benefit being that the lack of population concentration means you don’t see or interact with it as much

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u/themilkman03 Aug 07 '22

Not to mention transients from rural areas often make their way out to larger more liberal cities

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u/dont_shoot_jr Aug 07 '22

And conservative areas are so proud of that too

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u/AwesomeAni Aug 07 '22

I grew up in the 2000/2010 in Alaska. We had no TV and the internet couldn't load video. At my mom's we had a homestead so no working power or electricity.

My mom had a tragedy (lost her fiance) and was pregnant and living on a homestead less than 3 years later.

I am comvinved Her living in destitute poverty has influenced her fast side into alt right conspiracy theory, Qanon, flat earth, all of it.

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u/basssnobnj Aug 07 '22

Many people do not realize the depth of rural poverty in the United States. I certainly didn't when I was younger.

Trump did, and that's largely why he won in 2016, and still holds onto his base. There was a great article about this in The Atlantic or a similar publication.

Since the 1970s or so, the focus on the poor has been "inner city" poor, which are predominantly black and latino, with little or no attention paid to the the rural white poor When they talked about the poor quality of schools in politics, the focus was always inner city school, and not the rural poor white schools.

These are the people that Trump courted by vowing to bring back the coal industry, and to keep that Carrier plant in Indiana from moving to Mexico. For the first time in 50 years, someone was paying attention to the plight of the poor rural white in the US, and it got their attention, and their votes.

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u/Toast119 Aug 07 '22

The Democrats have been pandering to rural white poor people since I was born. I don't think this is a valid argument in my experience.

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u/SeVenMadRaBBits Aug 07 '22

This mentality is called nationalism

Nationalism is a form of in-group/out-group thinking. It encourages the kind of “us” vs. “them” attitude that drives sports fandom, making people irrationally committed to one team. When the team wins, they feel victorious (even though they just watched), and they feel pleasure in others’ defeat.

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u/SlightWhite Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

NC here and we’ll be flipping blue 2024 or 2028. I’d be surprised if it wasn’t 2024 tbh.

Charlotte and the triangle area are growing exponentially. We really are blue already, NC is just one of the states where there are microcosms of not only republicans, but literal confederates….not to mention a gerrymandering case that’s about to be decided by the US Supreme Court.

People moving to our big cities are gonna flip the state blue just like every other big city with an influx of new citizens

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u/Smoaktreess Aug 07 '22

A lot of NE people are moving down to NC since it’s nearby but cheaper. Hopefully you guys manage to flip blue before the republicans pull some major fuckery there.

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u/ratbastid Aug 08 '22

The changing demographics will flip our statewide votes and seats blue. I have little hope of a change in the gerrymanders that keep our state legislature strongly red--not with the current SCOTUS. And if they rule for the singular authority of the state legislature, that's game over.

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u/TenuousOgre Aug 07 '22

I attribute Utah’s vote on the gay conversion ban being tied to the LDS church having so much power in politics and their support of gay conversion by one of their three highest leaders while he was working at the church's Brigham Young University getting media time shortly before the vote. Church likely to,d their politicians to vote against because the optics were bad.

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u/Ban_of_the_Valar Aug 07 '22

Dang I get it if you don’t like Dems, but calling them the Yankees really is a low blow, even by today’s politics. :)

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u/Yashema Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

Exactly, people love to hate em but they get the job done.

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u/WumpusFails Aug 07 '22

I'm kind of curious how many "Republican" state legislatures are propped up only because of gerrymandering. Like PA, the Republicans got less than a majority of votes for their upper house, but control 2/3 of the seats, IIRC.

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u/rikki-tikki-deadly Aug 07 '22

You misspelled "Asterisks".

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u/tohon123 Aug 07 '22

wait so the people who voted for biden are making 71% of our countries money?

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u/ZeePirate Aug 07 '22

The amount of people that can’t understand why Trump has bigger rallies but lost the election is stunning.

Democrats aren’t in a cult.

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u/Jewnadian Aug 07 '22

Yeah, that's the part of the sports analogy that I wish people would get. Nobody looks at the Cowboys and says "Look how big their stadium is, if they don't win the SB it's rigged". You can just actually just suck at the job and that's enough to make you unsuccessful no matter how many people come to the 'rallies'.

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u/Rackem_Willy Aug 07 '22

In a conservative forum this week someone was talking about all the LiBruLs buying Fauci pins and posters and other merch. I'm sure that stuff exists and that tens or even dozens of people bought them, but the left doesn't fetishize bureaucrats. That's almost singularly part of the lunacy of modern ultra conservatives.

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u/Dongalor Aug 07 '22

I also like how in one breath, "the left" is criticized for not agreeing with each other and infighting and in the next, accused of being cohesive and playing "team sports."

The only thing I hate more than the democrats is the GOP. The left not agreeing is true because "the left" in the US is everyone left of Mussolini. The democrats have to cater to 12 different political parties worth of ideologies while the right just walks in lockstep with the christofascists.

So I guess what I am saying is, "go team not-the-republican!"

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u/Solesaver Aug 07 '22

So much this. I tell everyone that, despite being relatively progressive, I wish there was a strong conservative party challenging the Democrats. I dream of a world where politicians have meaningful debates over policy and law, and hold each other accountable. I think properly conservative politics are incorrect, but I don't think they are inherently crazy or indefensible.

Instead we live in a cuckoo world where one party's only consistent platform is obstructionism and fascism, and the other party can't get anything done because all the debate is happening within the party. Then the self-assured "moderates" look at it all and think "ah yes, balanced as all things should be."

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u/Dongalor Aug 07 '22

"ah yes, balanced as all things should be."

I take it back. I might also hate enlightened centrists more than democrats.

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u/jbcmh81 Aug 07 '22

The thing is, maybe rational conservatism is and always has been an illusion. After all, what really is conservatism but fear of change and of progress and of the "other". It's directly contradictory to how society functions, and the only way to maintain the status quo indefinitely, as seems to mostly be the point of conservatism- especially socially- is often through highly regressive, often harmful policy that flies in the face of both established facts and the natural evolution of societal norms. Conservatives are always desperately trying to turn back to clock to some perceived magical era, and it is constantly to the detriment of the present and future.

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u/hangryhyax Aug 07 '22

I saw a guy recently who got a pistol with a version of the Presidential seal around the barrel and trump’s signature going down the barrel towards the grip. Mind you, it wasn’t even a real copy of his signature, given that every letter was perfectly legible, rather than looking like the EKG of someone with a severe dysrhythmia.

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u/bethemanwithaplan Aug 07 '22

Also "do nothing democrats" yet they are organized and active enough to be the boogeyman

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u/ExcerptsAndCitations Aug 07 '22

The enemy is simultaneously weak and strong, Winston.

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u/bcarthur27 Aug 07 '22

Fascism 101, the enemy is both weak and strong

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u/Crash665 Aug 07 '22

I've thought this, too. Living in the South (US) where college football is king, I see people around me rooting for Republicans (particularly DT) the way they do for their favorite team

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u/DocSense Aug 07 '22

Yeah, I live in TN. The Dunning-Kruger, sub 85 IQ, Republican crowd talks about “we” when discussing college football. As in, ‘We are gonna have a great offense this year’

But the reality is most didn’t go to college, or went to a college other than their favorite team. These same people mock public schools and higher education. We are screwed as a nation.

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u/DoctorWorm_ Aug 07 '22 Take My Energy

This is a very common phenomenon in politics. A person's political beliefs become an identity/tribe for them, and they are afraid of being cast of the tribe and feel threatened by other tribes.

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u/Yashema Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

It is arguable that your political identity is the most important thing about you (and always has been).

If you are friendly, polite, like to crack jokes or a cold beer on a Friday and will lend me your lawn mower on Saturday but believe it is ok for women to have their right to abortion taken away, that LGBTQ+ should be allowed to be discriminated against, think that BLM is no different or worse than the January 6th insurrectionists, think that global warming is not a legitimate political issue, believe we should cut taxes for the wealthiest Americans to defund social programs, believe that Republicans voter suppression is not problematic, then yes your positive qualities are irrelevant. The only reason people in the past used to be able to hold such disparate political beliefs among peers (such as anti segregation and segregationists in the 50s or being anti gay vs pro gay marriage in the 2000s) is because discrimination was seen as socially acceptable.

Now it is considered "tribal" when Democrats all of a sudden stopped tolerating people holding discriminatory beliefs.

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u/SupaSlide Aug 07 '22

"I just wish that we would rebuild the Third Reich, why can't you accept my beliefs and treat them as equally valid as everyone else's?"

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u/SgtDoughnut Aug 07 '22

Ah yes tolerance paradox used as a weapon.

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u/SoupOfTheDayIsBread Aug 07 '22

Just after the 2016 election I heard the cries, “Why are you all hating on Trump so hard? Why don’t you give him a chance?”

A chance to do what? All the things he says he will do? No thank you.

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u/Beegrene Aug 07 '22

Republicans in 2016: It's not like he's gonna put Hispanic people in concentration camps or forcibly sterilize them.

Republicans in 2018: These concentration camps and forced sterilizations are vital to our national security.

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u/jbcmh81 Aug 07 '22

He did literally everything people feared he would do and more. All the people worried about a potential Trump presidency in 2015-2016 were completely vindicated.

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u/coolgr3g Aug 07 '22

They want to be treated as if their ideas are equally valid. But they're NOT valid at all and I refuse to entertain nationalism mingled with racism and homophobia while giving an ear to people who praise fascist dictators or think their church should be in charge of the government.

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u/bebe_bird Aug 07 '22

Now it is considered "tribal" when Democrats all of a sudden stopped tolerating people holding discriminatory beliefs

It's sad, because I think from 2008-2015ish, it was just socially unacceptable to be discriminatory - it didn't matter which party you were in, there were things you couldn't do/say. We're now in the backlash of that era where all the racist/misogynistic/etc people going "hey! I wanna be discriminatory and you can't stop me! I'm going to let my true colors shine" and, at least from my perspective, it's horribly depressing seeing so much social progress go backwards 50 years.

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u/Yashema Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

While it is true Democrats used to be less progressive on social issue, since 1964 Democrats have clearly become the party that is more progressive on social issues. And it isnt so much that social progress has gone backwards, but that social progress by and large halted from major advances between 1964-2008 due to voters being motivated against progressivism after the passage of the Civil Rights Act (see Republicans winning 5 out of 6 presidential elections between 1968-1988 after adopting the Southern Strategy, all by electoral landslides). The reason pro discriminatory people have gotten louder is because anti discriminatory people have gotten louder, and more political power, as well.

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u/Beegrene Aug 07 '22

I've often seen people treat their political opinions as like their eye color. Some completely inconsequential thing that they didn't choose and which is silly to get on their case about. But that's not how it works. Political beliefs are at the heart of who someone is as a person. They matter a lot.

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u/AintAintAWord Aug 07 '22

In Houston we're not allowed to talk about how the Astros cheated to win the World Series because "everyone cheats".

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u/valgrind_error Aug 07 '22

Agree in broad strokes but the frustrating thing is that I wish the hogs treated the GOP like a sports team. Listen to sports talk radio and you quickly realize they have much higher standards for the coaches/managers of their favorite franchises. Do you think any Alabama fan would allow Donald Trump to replace Nick Saban?

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u/Jellicle_Tyger Aug 07 '22

Winning at football is straightforward and all the action is out on the field. In politics victory is hard to define and most of the action is obscured.

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u/coolgr3g Aug 07 '22

It also has a lot to do with personal definition of success. For some people who are used to instant gratification, nothing short of groundbreaking results is accepted as success.

Most rational people notice success as incremental steps in the right direction.

It is apparent that Republican voters do not believe in incremental success, but rather sweeping political change or utter and complete failure with no gray areas in between. Which is also why a lot don't accept a vaccine which isn't 100% effective. They see it as a failure that they got vaxxed and still got sick, despite the evidence showing it preventing life threatening illness in the majority of people around the world.

You just can't argue with someone who has a different definition of words than you do and a different standard for what success is and isn't.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 11 '22

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u/SeVenMadRaBBits Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

This mentality is called nationalism

Nationalism is a form of in-group/out-group thinking. It encourages the kind of “us” vs. “them” attitude that drives sports fandom, making people irrationally committed to one team. When the team wins, they feel victorious (even though they just watched), and they feel pleasure in others’ defeat.

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u/Aimlesskeek Aug 07 '22

“They all do it!” My boomer Republican parent. “Then how are they better? Why keep voting for them?” Crickets… then ranting how I’m too young to know better. FYI: I’m middle aged.

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u/thisisnotdan Aug 07 '22

I wonder if the traditional Republican distrust of politicians might factor into this. They believe all politicians are scum and view them more as tools to move policy forward. Thus, it's easier to justify voting for a slimeball because "They all do it." If I have to choose a morally bankrupt person anyway, might as well make it one that advocates policy that I favor.

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u/karsa- Aug 07 '22

Of course it is. Republican isn't a position to many independents, it is a veto on the current policy, deeming democratic foreign and domestic policy to be over-aggressive and over-confident. Democrats seldom take office without proposing massive fiscal spending increases and social policy changes. If a republican is incompetent, that's the point.

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u/CamelSpotting Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

If that were true we'd probably see massive spending increases under democrats.

Edit: Relative to Republicans.

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u/jbcmh81 Aug 07 '22

And yet Democrats are factually better across the board on fiscal responsibility and economic growth.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/realdappermuis Aug 07 '22

I think there's also some correlation where those people aren't exactly shining examples of honesty themselves, so they celebrate the people in power who they think 'are like them'

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u/serious_sarcasm Aug 07 '22

Except it’s not just cheating. It is serious crimes like sexual assault, indecent liberties with a minor, and embezzlement.

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u/TheWhispersOfSpiders Aug 07 '22

Plus all the war crimes. And everything he allowed Miller to do to refugees. And all the people suffering because he turned basic pandemic response into a political minefield.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

No he means cheating at the basic rules of democracy.

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u/serious_sarcasm Aug 07 '22

I know. But we shouldn’t pretend that Republicans don’t circle their wagons around known rapists and pedophiles.

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u/mycroft2000 Aug 07 '22

I've found that a surprisingly effective response to a person who believes this is, "Hm. If Hillary Clinton was committing so many crimes, I wonder why she wasn't indicted for anything when Republicans had complete control of the Presidency, House, and Senate?" If this sows seeds of doubt, I follow through with the observation that if none of Trump's AGs sought to charge Hillary with a crime, after all those years of "Lock her up!" chants, by far the likeliest explanation is that she didn't commit any.

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u/shyxander Aug 07 '22

That isn't really a satisfying explanation because Democrats know that Republicans have cheated and still were found less willing to support someone unethical. If what you're saying is true than it seems that it is more true for Republicans than Democrats and the question still remains as to why. You aren't wrong though about them campaiging based on their opponents being cheaters. Maybe it's because their supporters are just looking for an excuse to use political power against people they disagree with while Democrats want a candidate who actually has integrity.

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u/sybrwookie Aug 07 '22

Satisfying or not, that's how this goes.

Got a D next to your name? If you actually do something terrible, you're pushed out and even your former supporters want you convicted for your crimes.

Got an R next to your name? Everyone is lying, you didn't actually commit a crime, it's a false flag, it's a deep state conspiracy to make you look bad, and besides, even if you did, it wasn't THAT bad. If some theoretical Democrat somewhere did the same thing, no one would be acting this way!

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

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u/I_Has_A_Hat Aug 07 '22 Silver

What if I don't think humanity is good or evil, but just believe it's incomprehensibly stupid.

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u/Cautemoc Aug 07 '22

That also falls into progressive, which is why we push so hard for education.

"Humanity is just stupid" is another way of saying "humanity would be good if people knew the choices better", which is still falling into the "humanity is good" camp in that you believe people can be better.

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u/mooxie Aug 07 '22

My professor 20 years ago said something similar, but different, that may address some of the comments that are looking for issues with this explanation. It probably comes from the same source, but at any rate I think it makes more sense than 'good' and 'evil':

Conservatives tend to believe that human nature is rigid and unchanging. People are people. Since that is the case, it makes more sense to focus on protecting oneself rather than society. People will not change their base nature no matter what you do, so giving up your own power/wealth/etc to try to reshape society with social programs is pointless, as is opining about the morality of helping others. Instead you focus on a rigid structure of law and punishment to hopefully keep the bad guys separated from the good, and you do what you can for you and yours.

Progressives on the other hand believe in the plasticity of human nature; that with the right circumstances and opportunities people can rise above the moral or social limitations imposed by struggle and need. They tend to see 'bad' people as largely the result of a bad environment and upbringing. The most important thing, then, is to focus on improving things for a broad enough swath of people that our society improves overall.

So you've got one group that wants to build a wall to keep bad things out, and another that wants to tear down walls thinking that analysis and treatment of the worst parts of our nature will improve things. This core difference explains a lot of the knee-jerk polarized reactions to the same information.

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u/darkest_irish_lass Aug 07 '22

I am left leaning and I don't believe most people are good. Quite the contrary.

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u/eliminating_coasts Aug 07 '22

Average group traits do not always carry through to all members.

Even if it's possible to build a classifier based on these kinds of ideas, that partitions people into distinct clusters based on their answer to one question but then also partitions people correctly in terms of conservative beliefs, we may still only expect say 95% accuracy, which still leaves out a lot of people.

And if we're not talking about cluster overlap, but correlation, there's even more potential to be one of the people pushing against the overall tendency.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

The missing ingredient that wasn't discussed is religious tendencies. Religion/Christianity and it's "beliefs" is a republican cornerstone, or bedrock at this point, and it basically indoctrinates people into blindly following something out of devotion and faith. This is partly what's allowing republicans to blindly follow and vote R regardless of what they're actually voting for, because their pastors and church leaders spread messaging like "voting for abortion is wrong" and "we are accountable to only god" meanwhile democrats are painted as "pro abortion" and "holding each other accountable" which are sleights to god in the eyes of republican voters who like to identify as religious when confronted about their beliefs.

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u/francis2559 Aug 07 '22

That gets very messy, as cause and effect get clouded. You could argue that some conservative beliefs are twisting religion just as easily as saying religious beliefs are twisting politics. As a religious person, I want church and state distinct to preserve both. But I would very much like to see it studied which drives which. I don’t think hatred of immigrants comes from the Bible, though it may very well come from religious custom.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

I get what you're saying as it can be perceived as a chicken-egg scenario, and religion has been around at least as long as the concept of politics (even counting ancient Rome etc), but I don't see the separation of church and state being driven by church leaders to begin with, even if it's followers want it. The specific messaging I mentioned about pastors and church leaders speaking about abortion, is a specific example I chose to use to show that the leaders are entering into the realm of politics by speaking on such matters, when the church's status as a non-tax paying entity should bar them from doing so, so it becomes less about cause and effect, and more about indoctrination, building up the walls of voters so only specific types of information get through to them as being important. It's what allows republicans to vote R even though their platform is anti-immigrant, anti-healthcare, and pro-war.

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u/francis2559 Aug 07 '22

Yeah I don’t disagree. Just trying to get at the root cause, and sharing some similar frustrations.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

Totally! I understand. And thank you for your replies, discussion is extremely important.

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u/AtomicBLB Aug 07 '22

You are looking for meaning where there is none. What your eyes and ears are seeing is in fact the truth. It's about power and pushing people they don't like down. Policy has not mattered for quite some time.

The point is to be a walking contradiction regardless of factors in play. If you have a (D) next your name, you're the devil. If you have an (R), well you can will be forgiven.

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u/Zaptruder Aug 07 '22

Pretty much. This isn't some both sides deal. One side cares more about values and the other cares more about in-group loyalty.

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u/pittiedad Aug 07 '22

And for some reason folks act like this is a new phenomenon. It's been happening for years. There is even the old saying democrats fall in love and republicans fall in line.

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u/Televisions_Frank Aug 07 '22

Well, Republicans have been slowly amping up the anti-Dem rhetoric for the last 25 years. Ever since Newt Gingrich started lying about Bill Clinton ignoring him on Air Force One to stoke partisan outrage.

Although it is unlikely to explain all of it or even most of it.

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u/RalfHorris Aug 07 '22

Maybe it's because their supporters are just looking for an excuse to use political power against people they disagree with while Democrats want a candidate who actually has integrity.

There's no "maybe" about it.

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u/scuczu Aug 07 '22

Republicans have a media channel on 24 hours a day confirming their bias

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

Multiple now actually, once you add in oan and newsmax

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u/FANGO Aug 07 '22

OAN is toast, as of like last week :-)

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u/SilverMt Aug 07 '22

Republican talk hosts dominate radio airwaves. Wealthy owners cancelled profitable progressive talk shows years ago.

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u/Stornahal Aug 07 '22

I think that it’s more “I would cheat in this position, they’re doing better than me, they MUST be cheating or else I’d be winning”

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u/slambamo Aug 07 '22

Donald Trump wasn't lying when he said he could walk outside, shoot some random person and not lose supporters. While you're not wrong, it goes MUCH farther than your comment.

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u/WoNc Aug 07 '22

While that may be part of it, it's also simply the case that a core component of fascism is loyalty to the in-group as the highest virtue.

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u/VoltronicEnergy Aug 07 '22

Republicans have supported a pedophile because he had an R next to his name. This is before Trump decided Democracy was inconvenient and his worshippers agreed.

All the study proves is what anyone observing for decades have known - “It’s ok if a Republican does it”

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u/013ander Aug 07 '22

Democrats aren’t cheating; they just outnumber Republicans. Cheating is taking the presidency when you got fewer votes than your opponent.

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u/retADA_mtb Aug 07 '22

This is exactly right. The people promoting the "stop the steal" idea were the ones actively trying to steal an election. Many of their followers believed is and amplified the message, but the organizers and promoters knew that it was a lie. They were doing it to provide cover for the real attempt to steal.

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u/Devadander Aug 07 '22

Not only is it ok if I cheat if the other side is cheating (according to me), we MUST cheat to overcome the evil democrats

Then add religion on top so the R voters believe they are fighting for God and must push aside any past ‘sins’ so they can be victorious for God

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u/dnen Aug 07 '22

Yes, but does that explain this difference between the members of the two parties though? I don’t think so—democrats know republicans started cheating once trump took over. Like literally every democrat is fully aware Republicans have resorted to bad faith politics at best, and at worst outright conspiracy to end the world’s oldest democratic system. From President Joe all the way down to Average Joe, we know this and it is supported by evidence. Yet democrats are still (annoyingly imo) impartial when evaluating our own elected party leaders even at the cost of sinking our own policy goals. Republicans are about one thing and one thing only now: opposing democrats. The reality is that the Dems gained such an advantage in terms of popular appeal after Bush that the republicans can’t compete unless they do this

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u/efvie Aug 07 '22

I think more the other way around, but I don’t know how much this has been studied: those with a lower level of trust (whether it’s by disposition or nurture or because of their own projected tendencies) seem to be more likely to gravitate toward authoritarian/hierarchical and conservative policies, whereas those with a higher level of trust tend to be more liberal and collectivist. But reinforcing this dynamic does seem to be a common strategy exactly in the way you describe.

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u/My_Username_Is_What Aug 07 '22

This is one of the excuses I’ve heard my whole life growing up from my father. “The dead vote for the Kennedy, demoncrats cheat every year so we should too.”

And when I point out two wrongs don’t make a right?

“It’s different when we do it.”

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u/rikki-tikki-deadly Aug 07 '22

Let me just say that I hope the words "look what you made me do!" weren't said too often in your household, but I would not be at all surprised if they were.

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u/WreckitWrecksy Aug 07 '22

Not calling them republicans anymore, just calling them by what they really are, fascists. The fascist party.

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u/Weekly_Direction1965 Aug 07 '22

Democrats get rid of a sitting senator for simply hovering his hand over a breast and not touching when he was a comedian, Republicans cheer on a under age sex trafficker, the two party's and their morality is not the same.

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u/archibald_claymore Aug 07 '22

It all comes down to essentialism. Conservative thinking often leverages essentialism as a core principle. The belief that goodness is a part of a thing or person, and not a measure of the consequences of action. Meaning, the morality of actions has to do with their source (who or what acted) rather than their results or context (what was done, why, and what impact it had). This means that the same actions taken by different people have different moral value.

To conservatives (this isn’t unique to American ones) goodness comes from group association. To progressives goodness comes from actions.

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u/Natanael_L Aug 07 '22

100% this. It's also related to tribalism and distrust in other's motives. "They aren't genuinely good, they do good only to trick people", and similar thinking. Or "they do good for the wrong people" (in reference to some disgruntled Republicans saying Trump is hurting the wrong people).

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u/Negative_Mancey Aug 07 '22

They can't comprehend empathy.

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u/budweener Aug 07 '22

They can, quite well actually. But only for the ingroup.

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u/internethero12 Aug 07 '22

Not really, they turn on each other at the drop of a hat.

The "empathy" they show is just narcissism that extends to anyone else who resembles themselves or their idealized version of how they think everything should be.

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

Great point, I just wanted to add that this also has a link to religion since religion, particularly evangelism, teaches that group think is necessary for "goodness" and "devoutness" and critical thinking is a path laid out to to tempt one away from god. And to take it further, republicans value wealth and view poverty as a moral failing, which is taught in evangelism, that if you are rich it means that you have been given god's blessings, but to be poor means you are undeserving of such blessings as of yet due to moral failings on their own part. Which certainly would encourage someone to be with the "in-group" as opposed to out of it, and can help explain the herd mentality of republican voters, whereas progressives fracture from each other relatively easy in comparison. Republicans are a monolith much like Christianity is a monolith.

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u/astroqat Aug 07 '22

can “essentialism” as a mind-set be reached via logical conclusion or only thru indoctrination? as a physicist atheist, i see no logical way to come to the conclusion that persons are good and right, regardless of their behaviors.

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u/PrionBacon Aug 07 '22

It can also be reached through stress.

Let's take an example: you're stressed and need to find something to eat at a restaurant. Will you try out a new dish with unfamiliar ingredients or just pick the plate you order the most because you know it arrives fast and tastes okay? Most stressed people will choose the latter. When stressed, our brains don't want to consider new things or nuance. Our brains just want an easy black or white choice.

Extend this to politicians. Will a stressed person compare and contrast someone new or will they stick to what is familiar? Even if the politician did something bad, they are still the familiar candidate.

Now let's look at what causes stress. Places with low minimum wage, lack of education for advancement, and poor health. Map these causes of stress over the states and you'll find Republican states often have the most causes of stress.

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u/AllWashedOut Aug 07 '22

Depends on your definition of "good", of which there are many.

The least ambiguous definition I've seen is "increases the likelihood of our community's continued existence." (You can replace "community" with family/church/nation/team/race/ethnicity or whatever)

In that definition, people who share the community's unifying beliefs are "good". And your actions towards non-members barely counts at all. Because a community with dogmatic members was more likely to survive war than a community where everyone is kind to strangers.

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u/FANGO Aug 07 '22

Look into the history of Calvinism in the US. Predestination was a central portion of their theology, the idea that some people are automatically born into god's grace and will go to heaven, and some won't.

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u/pancakeses Aug 07 '22

Your comment reminded me of something I experienced a few years ago.

I remember someone in a leadership position at my organization (a fundamentalist in some denomination or other) telling a large group of younger personnel that there is no gray area. Everything in life is black and white, either right or wrong.

I was pissed. I mean, there's a reason for the concept of "ethical decision making" and the quandries/games/scenarios that force you to make and defend a decision where neither path is fully "good", nor fully "bad".

I wish I'd spoken up in the moment, but I did talk to those juniors later on about the reality of difficult ethical situations and decision.

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u/Brokenbonesjunior Aug 07 '22

How does this explain those studies that show conservatives are more likely to keep democrat friends around, while democrats are more willing to ostracize their more conservative friends and family?

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u/Raccoon_Full_of_Cum Aug 07 '22

It also comes down to the fact that Republicans are an ethnically and religiously homogenous identity politics movement. When your loyalty to your party is based solely on identity, you'll always be willing to overlook the bad things they do.

Democrats, on the other hand, are a very ethnically and religiously diverse party that is united by principles. People tend to be a lot more willing to criticize their own party when their loyalty to the party is based on principle, rather than identity.

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u/8to24 Aug 07 '22

34 people were indicated in association with The Mueller investigation. Trump's Personal Lawyer, National Security Advisor, and 2 campaign managers were successfully prosecuted for felonies.

Republican supporters call the Mueller Investigation the Russian Hoax. They claim it exonerated Trump.

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u/Appellotops Aug 07 '22

It's always funny when they call something a hoax and then use that same thing as evidence to support their claims.

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u/8to24 Aug 07 '22

Yep, circular logic.

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u/N8CCRG Aug 07 '22

I've tried getting conservatives to acknowledge any of the section on the Trump Tower meeting, or commentary about it, where Muller says "Yep, they coordinated with Russian intelligence in order to get information from them in an attempt to interfere with the election, but achieving the high burden of proof necessary for both 'intent' and 'value of the information they would have received' is probably too difficult, so we can't prosecute, but yes it did happen."

They always appear to be physically incapable of doing so.

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u/zonitronic Aug 07 '22

Party before country. Party before rule of law. Party before ethics. Party before morality. Party before all.

It is no longer a political party; it is a cult.

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u/madcaesar Aug 07 '22

always has been.jpg

Since Nixon at least.

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u/get-bread-not-head Aug 07 '22

I mean anyone willing to support Nixon as he wire taps himself and his entire staff with a bottle of whiskey in one hand and the list of slangs he called his staff in the other.... is probably not very smart.

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u/RectalSpawn Aug 07 '22

Reagan, it all started with Reagan.

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u/Nuclear_Assault Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

And the problem is, this is the party our system of representation disproportionately favors, and the even bigger problem is no one is talking about that, and no one in the Democratic party seems interested in changing it. The fact Wyoming (population 600,000) has the same number of senators as California (population 40 million) is completely anti-democratic and unsustainable.

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u/MilitaryJAG Aug 07 '22

Or admitted to being a sexual predator in an interview. Or paid a porn star hush money to hide repeat adultery.

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u/serious_sarcasm Aug 07 '22

Or have a literal receipt for sex trafficking minors.

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u/AKMarine Aug 07 '22

Or be the only President found guilty in court —while serving as president— of using veteran charity funds to pay campaign staffers.

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u/Sweatytubesock Aug 07 '22

Unlimited mulligans.

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u/mvallas1073 Aug 07 '22

A family member said I was being bad because I voted for a man who “smells women’s hair” and wouldn’t see that as a disqualifyer. I said the following to them:

“Would I like to not vote for him for that and make it an issue? Sure, I’d love to have that investigated - but I can’t hold him accountable for anything anymore. And the SOLE reason I can’t is because of you - you do not hold your own accountable. The last president that you still support is an admitted adulterer, admits to sexual assault, and goodness knows how many other crimes - but you don’t care. I have to unfortunately play by your rules - you have set the standard because, if I play by moral standards, you will always break them to get your guy in. So let me make this clear, It’s YOUR fault I have to support not great politicians, because YOU do not hold your own accountable for anything - in fact, it almost appears as if you vote SPECIFICALLY for the one who breaks the moral code.”

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u/greentreesbreezy Aug 07 '22

While the "When they go low, we go high" creed is inspirational and morally superior, the end result is that ethically inferior people will take advantage of that and win over and over.

Saying "cheating is bad" is meaningless when you're in a two horse race, your opponent is a cheating scumbag, the referee is on their side, and the audience are on their phones instead of watching. Rules are meaningless when there is no accountability.

Ultimately you have two options, you can start playing dirty and have a chance to win, or you can stay on your high horse and let the worst of the worst make all the decisions that effect everyone.

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u/EasternShade Aug 08 '22

This is the argument where I introduce ranked choice, proportionate representation, abolishing gerrymandering, ending disenfranchisement, etc.

'Cause for all the complaints about how one side or the other is a bag of fuckwads, it's consistently one side that opposes improving democracy in the country.

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u/liquid_at Aug 07 '22

not surprising since "the democrats do it too, what other choice did republicans have?" narrative is being injected into their brains.

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u/Quadrassic_Bark Aug 07 '22

“Injected” is exactly the right word to use.

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u/DevLARP Aug 07 '22

“I choose to believe what I was programmed to believe”

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u/get-bread-not-head Aug 07 '22

"I'm a free thinker! Let me regurgitate all of these ideas I heard on TV to show how much of a free thinker I am!

What makes me a free thinker? Well I'm not a Democrat! Haha!"

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u/N1A117 Aug 07 '22

That's just a poor excuse, they're willing to do it and thus responsible for their actions. It's not like they couldn't defend themselves from the brain washing information.

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u/tevert Aug 07 '22

I think you give the human brain and consciousness a bit too much credit there.

Propaganda works. It's an inevitable fact of reality.

Just like how we have to put warning labels on bleach and cigarettes, we have to think about how to handle indoctrination and indoctrinated people.

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u/themarknessmonster Aug 07 '22

Cheating on your wife by banging a pornstar

Trafficking children

Raping minors

Rigging elections

Inciting a political insurrection

Covering up the fact they incited a political insurrection

Working for Russians

Covering up the fact they work for Russians

Voting against the very veterans they gaslit into war

Voting to control women's bodies

Gutting public education and lobbying to defund public libraries and access to education so they can continue their attack on our countries institutions far into the future unabated by the masses who would otherwise know better

Republicans have NO threshold for their party's political transgression.

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u/merlinsbeers Aug 07 '22

TL;DR: The GOP is basically a street gang, now.

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u/Pr0gr3s Aug 07 '22

"transgressions" is an odd way to say "Matt Gaetz had a coke orgy with an underaged prostitute".

Potato hippopotamus I guess.

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u/Realistic-Willow7440 Aug 07 '22

Yea, sorry a bunch of people who answer questions on amazon mechanical turk are not a good slice of society. The authors even aknowledge this:

Furthermore, our single Mturk sample may not present the best representation of the American public. Because the majority of Turkers identify as young and liberal (Lewis et al., 2015), it is possible our conservative sample is limited in scope. Although we found that conservatives tended to possess higher severity thresholds, it is possible older, more religious conservatives are more sensitive to transgressions than younger, less religious conservatives. Thus, thresholds for conservatives in the current work may be artificially high. It would improve the validity and reliability of the current study if additional samples, from different sources, obtained similar results.

I do not think the majority of the Republican party is young tech savy people that take surveys for 70 cents a piece.

Not to mention the title and article are both a bit misleading. The prompt these turk workers were actually responding to was:

“how bad transgressions have to be for you to consider voting for a candidate that is not in your party.” Participants learned that they would encounter 70 “candidate conundrums” in which they had to vote for either a Democratic or Republican candidate in an election that would determine whether “the Democrats or Republicans gain control of the House of Representatives.”

1) Voting for a candidate vs not voting at all is very different than voting for a candidate vs voting for one with opposing political views.

2) I think it's natural the party that isn't in control of the House of Representatives would tolerate more transgressions than the one that is.

Not even going to get into the problems with fig 3 having no actual analysis, but supporting the main claim of the paper.

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u/kickeduprocks Aug 07 '22

“Bill Clinton cheated on his wife. He wasn’t fit to rule the country because he doesn’t have good morales.” - my republican neighbor

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u/samoore0 Aug 07 '22

Or rape, or child molestation, or physically assaulting someone, or indecent exposure or overthrowing the government. The conservatives will overlook any behavior to reach their goals.

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u/saintbad Aug 07 '22

Because there are no longer any principles to conservatism except to WIN--even, maybe especially, if it means destruction of the country they pretend to love. The country fails because Republiqan-voting citizens fail the simplest civic and human tests.

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u/Dry-Bird-2993 Aug 07 '22

In my opinion. They never had any to begin with. The reason they weren't as open with it back in the day as they are now? Well, because of the amount of people watching now. As in. They have done the exact same things they are now back in the day. It's just there's not only more focus on them now. But the internet exists. With information moving at light speed. Beyond that? People started realizing what the consequences to republican/conservative action really is. I mean america started out conservative. Big time conservative. Hence why america sucked much harder back in the day than now. After a while though people started figuring out their policies are crap.

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u/Wagamaga Aug 07 '22

During a 2016 campaign stop in Iowa, then-Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump pronounced, "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?"

Was he right? Or do some transgressions cross a line in the sand—points that, if crossed, cause voters to abandon their support?

And if there are lines in the sand, do conservatives and liberals draw them in the same place? Does the strength of ideological identity affect where people draw the line?

These sociopolitical issues are illuminated in "Could Your Candidate Shoot Someone on 5th Avenue and not Lose Votes? Identifying 'Lines in the Sand' in Ingroup Candidate Transgressions," a new study published in the Journal of Social and Political Psychology that explores how people make voting decisions when they learn their favored candidates have committed moral transgressions.

https://jspp.psychopen.eu/index.php/jspp/article/view/5453

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u/DrDaniels Aug 07 '22

Roy Moore showed many Republicans will vote for a kiddie diddler so long as he's got an R next to his name.

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u/Vicrooloo Aug 07 '22

What’s scarier? That someone so disgusting still gets votes or support? Or that a challenger still has an uphill battle sometimes/most of the times? Incumbents generally win and that includes reprehensible incumbents. Even when they lose it’s “how did they still get this much support”?

Both reflect poorly on the electorate and I don’t know how to reconcile this.

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u/catdad_11 Aug 07 '22

Democrats forced Al Franken to resign over minor inappropriate touching. Republicans still support Trump after he attempted to overturn an election and incided an insurrection at the Capitol. Yes, I would say there is a huge difference in where the lines are drawn.

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u/IronChariots Aug 07 '22

Al Franken to resign over minor inappropriate touching

Not even that. Hand hovering in such a way as to suggest touching in a photo

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u/Superb_University117 Aug 07 '22

Over hover hands

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

Over hover hands in a blurry photo

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u/I_Has_A_Hat Aug 07 '22

That was taken before he was a politician.

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u/Andrewticus04 Aug 07 '22

And it was with a friend who thought it was funny.

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u/Melankewlia Aug 07 '22

“Don’t confuse me with facts. My mind is already made up.”

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u/WeepingSomnabulist Aug 07 '22

Tangentially related, but there was a brilliant reference in The Boys. Homelander is essentially a Trump version of Superman.

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u/n3rdgir7 Aug 07 '22

Makes sense for authoritarians

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u/The_Nakka Aug 07 '22

The title of this post is extremely misleading.

  1. The Republicans and Democrats were close in their results.
  2. The ranking of transgressions could depend on political stance. For example, "dressed up in blackface for a Halloween costume when they were in college" is ranked as moderately severe, but it could be interpreted differently among ideological lines.
  3. The study title, "Could Your Candidate Shoot Someone on 5th Avenue and not Lose Votes? Identifying “Lines in the Sand” in Ingroup Candidate Transgressions," seems partisan
  4. "Five-hundred Amazon Mechanical Turk workers residing in the United States completed the study." Amazon Mechanical Turk workers don't reflect the greater U.S.
  5. A handful of people, mostly Republican, did not change their vote at any severity. Outliers can skew results.
  6. "As predicted, conservatives voted for more severely transgressive ingroup candidates." "The tendency for Republicans to prioritize loyalty above harm is captured in recent work investigating perceptions of prominent politicians." Not quite "I'll do a study and see what the results are."
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u/curious-gus Aug 07 '22

A core difference in world views is that most Republican believe that everyone would cheat, given an incentive and opportunity. But most Democrats believe that most people will do the Right Thing.

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u/coatrack68 Aug 07 '22

We know. Look at trump and his supporters.

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u/Beau_Buffett Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

Yup, this kicked off at a whole new level early at the point of locker room talk. And then again with Spicer sent out to scream about something that no one but Donald cared about.

And then it just got worse on a daily basis until his supporters attempted a coup.

And it's not over.

They are sitting out there planning to outdo themselves.

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u/Tricky-Sympathy Aug 07 '22

The party of "law and order"

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u/powpowpowpowpow Aug 07 '22

Well they weren't talking about conservative white politicians when they say they want to be tough on crime... I wonder which group of people they might have had in mind?

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u/Devils_Advocate1357 Aug 07 '22

Rather ironic considering the Republicans advertise themselves as tough on crime while the democrats talk about the importance of rehabilitation and forgiveness

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u/Dewshbag41 Aug 08 '22

Obviously, Republican voters are 40% criminals, 40% are too stupid to understand the implications, and the other 20% live under a rock and just vote R down the ballot because of 1 or 2 political stances.

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u/vid_icarus Aug 07 '22

American conservatism is not a moral philosophy. It’s predicated on greed and hate, so this revelation doesn’t surprise me. There’s nothing Christian about the GOP.

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u/TiberSeptimIII Aug 07 '22

I think it’s a mindset thing. To a conservative at least in the USA, the primary goal is to take power. They’re much more likely to punish (by primary) a defector than an immoral person. In elections, nothing is more important than getting the Rs in power. And in the courts, it’s much more important to put in a conservative judge than to play by the rules.

Democrats are much more interested in the rules, good policy, and morality. They think putting good people in place who support the right policies will result in power. This they’re much more likely to force an immoral person to resign, or reject a candidate in elections who has poor policy ideas even if it means that the republicans win.

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u/nbdmydude Aug 07 '22

Man it’s wild watching their findings play out in these comments

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u/VolkspanzerIsME Aug 07 '22

Someone told me one-time:

"Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."

And it's stuck with me through the years.

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u/DontBeMeanToRobots Aug 07 '22

American conservatism is a bad ideology for our species

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22 edited Aug 07 '22

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u/[deleted] Aug 07 '22

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